All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
All Clear is a podcast that looks at the perils of modern firefighters, especially the physical and mental strains we face. Our goal is to help firefighters ignite The Fire Within and to build the best version of themselves as firefighters. Our conversations are real, sometimes raw but always honest. All Clear is presented by the NC Firefighter Cancer Alliance & First Responders Peer-Support Network.
All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
"Fire Code Mysteries Exposed: How Understanding It Can Save Lives – Mark Brown’s Insights!"
Ready to gain invaluable insights from a firefighting legend? Join us on "All Clear Firefighter Wellness" as we welcome Mark Brown, a veteran firefighter with over 40 years under his belt. Mark’s journey from a 14-year-old junior firefighter to a seasoned expert is nothing short of inspiring. He passionately explains how understanding fire codes can dramatically improve both occupant safety and firefighter protection. You’ll learn how this vital knowledge aids in navigating buildings, managing hose lines, and controlling fire conditions effectively.
This episode also takes a deep dive into the critical roles of fire alarm and sprinkler systems. We'll bust common myths, such as the idea that all sprinklers activate at once, and stress the importance of promoting residential sprinkler systems. Mark breaks down the different designs and the significance of understanding fire alarms' detection types. Additionally, we highlight the importance of Fire Department Connections (FDC) and the necessity of accurate pressure testing to ensure these life-saving systems are always functional and reliable.
To wrap things up, we address the crucial role of areas of rescue assistance and the importance of fire code education. Learn why firefighters must be familiar with special locking arrangements and safety devices like smoke detectors. The episode concludes with a light-hearted dad joke and a heartfelt thank you to Mark for sharing his wealth of knowledge. Don’t miss this chance to ignite your inner fire and gain practical tips that could make all the difference in your firefighting career!
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This is All Clear Firefighter Wellness, where we help you light your fire with it. Welcome to All Clear. I'm Travis, good to have you here again. I have a very special guest with us this week Personal mentor of mine it's his fault, I'm in the fire service. This is Mark Brown. Would love for you to tell us who you are, mark, and what you're doing these days, and maybe we can tell a few stories about how we know each other and we'll go from there.
Speaker 2:All right, good deal.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm Mark Brown and I started out in the fire department a long time ago as a 14-year-old, snot-nosed junior firefighter at a volunteer department, and Gumtree Fire Department was a very good place to start out.
Speaker 2:They taught me how to grow up, be an adult and kind of get into things, and they taught me the importance of being in an organization and introduced me to the brotherhood sisterhood of the fire department, and from there I got the spark, let's say, to get into it and pursue it as a career, and I was able to do it. Basically, I'm around 40, 41 years right now in some form of deal with the fire department, whether working full-time or part time, and then everything else. During the tenure I was with the fire department I served about half of my career, the 30 years full-time, on a fire suppression side of the house and then, for whatever reason I guess, I lost my mind and decided I wanted to get on to the fire prevention side and one of these kids who couldn't figure out if I wanted to be a firefighter or a police officer and somewhere in between there being an inspector, a fire investigator and that side of the house basically landed me where I wanted to be at with the fire department.
Speaker 1:So between that and a few college degrees.
Speaker 2:I guess that's about me.
Speaker 1:Well, there's nothing wrong with being on the dark side. It's the fun side sometimes, as I like to say. But I know that one of the things that you are very passionate about is the fire code. You understand the fire code very completely. Now, that's very unique because a lot of firefighters that are currently on the line that may not necessarily be their forte. Is it important, in your opinion, that a firefighter have some understanding of the fire code? Not saying they have to have a full level three fire inspector understanding, but do you think it's important that they have some aspects in their mind about the fire code?
Speaker 2:I do and, like I said, I'm passionate about it because everything is interrelated. I know a lot of times firefighters are like I didn't get in the fire department to be a fire inspector, I didn't get in there to be a fire code guy and all this stuff. I got in there to fight fire and on that side of the house and I can respect that.
Speaker 2:But what they don't understand is the fire code is a document that is just as much for them and their protection while fighting fire as it is for the occupants that are in a building. And to give you the working example of when I write, I teach fire code inspector continuing education classes, I get a lot of line personnel in there. They're like oh my God, it's a fire code update. This is going to be the worst boring class in the whole world. But what I try to do when I come in there with them is look, it is about you, it's not just the occupants. And I'll give you one of the working examples I use whenever I teach is we know the components of an exit. You have the exit access, the exit itself and the exit discharge, and that's important for an occupant. To recap, an exit access is anywhere inside of a building roughly to an exit which could be a door. The exit itself basically is the door, or it may very well be like a vestibule or an airlock type area where you walk between two doors to the outside and then you have the exit discharge on the outside which goes to the public way. That's for the occupant, the way I turn it around and I say all right, let's reverse that for a second. You're coming into the building. The exit discharge now is going to be your access to the building. So you've got to park in the public way and being stretching hose from the truck in through the exit discharge, into the exit and the exit access, and there's a lot of things that you need to think about, especially whenever you're doing a fire. Inspection is, let's say, the exit discharge to the public way, parking shrubbery, planters, other things like that that can inhibit hose pulls, hose drags that can create snag points, other issues of kinks and things like that. So analyzing that from that side of things. On an inspection side, the exit itself, if you're going through the door again, the door closure device Firefighters talk about door control.
Speaker 2:Door control is important for keeping your flow path and all those things like that under control. Control is important for keeping your flow path and all those things like that under control. So being able to get through that door, the exit itself, and being able to maneuver hose through there. Then let's say it's one of those things that has a vestibule or it's an airlock type situation, feeding hose in and getting hose in the building or firefighters use the term loading the building with fire hose. That's important when you push it through the exit. If you have the vestibule area or the airlock area, if there's furniture, plants, vending machines, gumball machines, those sort of things that tend to pop up in there, again that's going to impede being able to load that hose in that building and get it into the building.
Speaker 2:And then, obviously, when we look at the exit access, that turns around to the fact of basically moving fire hose within a building and being able to manipulate it through the various different ways of it, whether you're going stairs, you're going downstairs, you're going down a hallway, up a hallway, whatever, to that point and anywhere, because the exit access from a firefighter point is getting in the building all the way into the furthest reaches of the building potentially and being able to, you know, fight fire and be able to control things and control flow, path and a lot of those other things.
Speaker 2:So you know, I try to teach that to firefighters whenever I do interact with them, about saying, look, you might hate doing fire inspections, but if you turn it around and look at it from the aspect not only safety but also firefighter safety and maintaining things like door control and flow path and thinking about the fact of fire travel and where you may impede the hazards or any other issues like that may trap a firefighter.
Speaker 2:One of the things that happened in the Denver Colorado incident, where the firefighter was down in there in Paris and where the Denver drill came from, was the fact that he was in a dead end there. The code gives the fact that dead ends shouldn't go over 20 feet in a non-sprinkled building and in 50 feet if it's sprinkled. So that's just as important in the case of an occupant getting out. But it's more important with a firefighter being able to get in and if they do get into a down situation or a rick type situation or call that firefighters can get in there, get them out and work with them. So that's equally important on an inspection to look for that as well. So that's where I go with things when I do teach.
Speaker 1:And you bring out a very good point. One of the things that you taught me when I was learning and I learned from Archie Coble things like that is when we look at the fire code when we do a plan review yes, it is for public safety, but number one is for firefighter safety. We have to make sure that the firefighters have multiple options how to get in, how to set up and basically run everything backwards, cast off when we start talking fire code. But, honestly, there are some very important things, and you mentioned the egress. You know how that becomes ingress. I can think of at least two other examples and I want to kind of get you to weigh in on them. One of them is the operation of fire alarms. How critical do you think it is that firefighters understand how a fire alarm works? You don't have to understand how many devices and all that. What are the critical aspects that you think a firefighter would need to understand about the operation of a fire alarm?
Speaker 2:A lot of times firefighters tend to look at oh crap, it's a smell and bill kind of situation, false alarm, whatever type thing about it. But fire alarms do serve a very important point and a lot of times, to understand the way a fire alarm works is a lot of times with what is the philosophy and why is it there? Is it in there for building protection? Is it in there for occupant protection? Is it something where that it's a unique detection type concept, like a fire detector or any other type of beam detectors and things like that fire detector or any other type of beam detectors and things like that? And knowing the fact that if I'm out here pre-planning a building and I come up, let's say, and I've got a fire detector or flame detector going off somewhere in the building, then I need to understand that that's a hazard. That's going to be on something that's maybe some kind of explosive type material, highly toxic or pressurized flammable gas or things like. That's a very severe hazard type situation.
Speaker 2:Now, another thing I talk to them too about is that, like with the remote enunciator panels and things like that, those need to be close to an interior door that the fire department is coming in to access the building and that's an important aspect when it comes to plan review. That's one of those areas where the plan reviewer on the fire department needs to interact with the fire suppression group that is going to be responding to the building that they're doing this fire alarm plan review on and ask those guys hey, look, what door are you going to be coming in so that I can make sure that the fire alarm? There's a remote annunciator panel at the door so that you guys don't have to go 20, 30, 40, 50 feet into a building, into an electrical room, to look at an electrical panel. That's equally important as far as that and, like I said, the detection design and why it's there.
Speaker 1:Yep, and that's a good point. And if folks are listening to this episode, they've probably already had a chance to listen to the episode we had with Peter Werder, our wave rider wage rider I have trouble with his last name with Gamma Electronics. He is a BDA specialist. Bda systems are something that are relatively new the emergency responder repeater systems for the radios.
Speaker 1:And one of the points he brought out, it's important to understand the operation of a fire alarm, because a lot of those components report back to the fire alarm and you have to know what does it mean when it says donor antenna failure? What does that go to? What the heck are we talking about? So understanding those things and keeping current are very critical, and I know we've got, like you mentioned, hazmat locations here in our jurisdiction that have very unique types of detection systems and it's important that you understand what each of them do. And so, yeah, no doubt fire alarm is one of the critical ones. How about the next one, sprinkler? That one, I think, is probably the most misunderstood of all systems, because we know what they do but we sometimes don't exactly understand how they do it. What info do you have for firefighters on sprinklers that you think would be worth knowing?
Speaker 2:First of all, the biggest misconception about sprinklers is how they operate. That's a specter that the fire service fights out there, because whenever you look at movies or cinema or TV shows, it's always the fact that if one goes off, they all go off, and that's not the way it works. Each one of them is a temperature element sensitive type thing where the majority of fires are handled by one sprinkler, maybe two, and great design systems save many lives and things like that. But there's a lot of misconceptions out there about those. And then also the fact of that we need to act as the sales point for a lot of things. When it comes to residential sprinklers, I know we deal with the fact that the construction industry for the most part doesn't push residential sprinklers. They tend to expect, on our side of the fence, for us to promote the program and we fall very short of that because residential sprinklers are just as important a concept as smoke detection and things like that. So that's the first thing is we need to sell sprinkler systems and be more out there in the front of being able to do that. And then, as far as it goes with sprinkler systems, what's the design? Sometimes with just an NFPA 13 system. You're looking at a system that's not really designed to put a fire completely out. You have heads that maybe you're pushing between 15 to 35 gallons per minute, versus an ESFR system and high rack storage and those things like that. Now you've got heads pushing upwards 100 to 150 gallons per minute, depending upon the demand and the need like. So we need to understand the concept of what exactly is we're looking at when we're going to door if they are on fire.
Speaker 2:Now the next thing about it is that sprinkler systems are not designed to put up the entire building. They're based on the design area principle, on whether it's light hazard, ordinary hazard or extra hazard, and again those particular concepts put out the fact of the water things with it. Now, along the same lines with that is, a lot of firefighters don't understand or don't know the fact that since the early 2000s, new installations of underground water supplies and things for sprinkler systems have had built-in hose demand outside and hose demand inside numbers in the calculation. In the calculation we look at these old mill buildings out here that have been around since the early or late 1800s, early 1900s, those red, or people call them private hydrants or yard hydrants or things like that. They're not designed to pull water off it because you rob water from the system and you don't have ample supply there to push it into an FTC.
Speaker 2:But on the other side of things now, since around 2000, that inside outside hose demand has been a factor that's added in. Whenever the demand is figured for the sprinkler system, there is an extra amount of water there, whether it's 250 for outside or 100 or more for inside hose demand, where those yard hydrants and newer installations can be used to supply that system. And it's a critical thing because if you're having to lay in from the street 100 or 200 or 300 more feet, the four or five inch or LDH hose, then that's going to take time Versus if you've done your homework and your pre-plans and you know the fact those yard hydrants in that system on this new area are configured to where they have the extra water built into it that you can pull from and get things adequately supplied in a rapid fashion. Just again, that's important too when it comes to sprinkler design.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no doubt, and I can speak for Concord, and I know this is the case in other places around the country where our listeners may be, places around the country where our listeners may be. There are so many new technologies that are popping up and so many new hazards and new classes of things that are coming up. You have to stay on top of it. It's interesting when you talk about the high pile storage and the high rack storage, understanding that you have adequate water to knock that down with a sprinkler system before guys even go in. That's huge. And that goes back to the whole thing. You need to know your district, you need to go do your pre-plans, you need to be in the buildings, you need to go out and, even during construction, go out and look and see what's happening so that you get an eyeball on it before it gets buttoned up. That way you won't be surprised if you ever do have a problem but it gets buttoned up that way you won't be surprised if you ever do have a problem.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so sprinkler systems are critical. But one of the things about the sprinkler system that I know that every firefighter has touched at some point is an FDC connection. I know that when we test them we actually run about a 75% failure rate. Is what I've noticed over probably the last five or six years. Most of them don't work for some reason or have a check valve in backward or something like that. What info would you pass along when it comes to maybe looking at your FDC connections and locations of other things that are maybe on the site itself that might be away from the building?
Speaker 2:All right. The FDC is important from the aspect of just understanding, first of all, where it's at, where it is and what's going on with it and things like that as far as it goes, and knowing that, where it's located, like I said, and everything. Excuse me just for a minute. The major thing on that is is it working? And I think the fact that we're doing that testing out there and we're going in and we're doing our final testing and flow testing it's important number one that the fire suppression side of things be involved, that if we're doing a flow test on a standpipe system or something, or if we're doing any type of sprinkler testing or flow where the FTC is involved, we need to get the first two companies out there where they can hook in and flow to. So, knowing where it's in, knowing the fact, are you dealing with a Siamese connection? Are you dealing with a large diameter hose connection? What type of supplies or adapters or any other things you might need to make sure that you effectively be able to hook to it? And then the other thing is the design pressure. We're dealing with a hydrostatic pressure of 200 psi.
Speaker 2:Firefighters have always been taught the fact.
Speaker 2:The rule of thumb is 150 on systems and things like that. And I think the more fair thing about it is, whenever we did the acceptance testing on these systems, that we get suppression involved and get the first new company out there and have them hook tight and go ahead and flow into the system. So whenever inspections or the testing agencies are doing their testing, whenever they get the desired pressure at the topmost outlet, then the company can be relayed and say, hey, look, if you're pumping up to the third or fourth floor or something like that, or uppers, you need to make sure that you pump at least this pressure minimum, because now, instead of the 150 number or figuring your friction loss with the loss in the hose and elevation pressure, system pressure and all those things hydraulically that driver operator should talk. When it comes down to it, knowing the exact pressure would be a definite help and then posting that potentially on the FDC or making sure that's part of the pre-planning aspect of it and all those things too. I know that testing is critical.
Speaker 2:You mentioned about Concord and the fact there, whenever the new Concord Police Department was finaled out, we went out there and did the flow testing on the roof outlet on it and we ended up failing it on the day of the test because we were upwards, right at 190, 195, pushing hydrostatic test pressure and we were not getting the correct pressure at the top most out and they had to come back in and and I do not remember verbatim exactly how many elbows and pipe they had to reroute, but let's just say they had to reroute a few and it was more than you would figure out to be able to get that design pressure up there. So that pressure testing is equally important when it comes down to it as well, to make sure that you've got that right pressure at the outlet that you need.
Speaker 1:And all these are good points, and the whole reason of this episode today is so that guys that are on the line understand that when the plan reviewers and fire prevention look at stuff, there is a reason we do it, and the biggest reason is for the safety of the firefighter and at the end of the day, it's important that they have an understanding of what we're looking for Now. Would you say in general that it would benefit a firefighter to maybe take a level one code class Not saying that they want to become a firefighter, but do you think it'd be worth doing that just for general knowledge and to help them be more effective at their job?
Speaker 2:I do and, like you said, understanding exactly what the code is talking about. And I'll give you an example of, tactically, how that fire department needs to know about. The code is in chapter 10. Whenever you have areas of rescue assistance and those are required to be in a building, when you have that area of rescue assistance intercom system in the building, then you're going to have fire rated areas in the building or interior, exterior, where those people that are mobility impaired are going to be going to in a fire rated enclosure to get into a safe area because either they cannot get down steps or elevators have reported to the area of the floor of exit discharge and are not working. So those people are going to be in those areas. Well, the intercoms that are in those areas are required by the building code and the fire code. And when you look at it tactically, okay, we talk about on the fire side, about RECIO VS, which the R in RECIO is rescue, that's all the thing about it. Just the first thing is tactically with it, when an officer rolls up on the scene, if they've done their pre-planning, then they know that there is areas of rescue assistance in this building, say, areas of rescue assistance in this building and the fact that one of the first things they need to do when they're doing that 360 for their size up is go in there and look at that area rescue assistance intercom system and making sure that if they have people that are in those areas, all of a sudden rescue becomes the priority. The rest of RECOVS and all the other acronyms and things like that the fire department throws at it for tactics, those kind of go by the wayside until we've been able to get those people out of those areas of rescue assistance. Even if you're talking about tactically on an exterior 360 on a building for size up, if you've got a building that has outside areas of rescue assistance, in other words, if the building does not come down at grade, there may be areas on the outside where mobility impaired individuals are on fire escapes or on stairwells places or stuff like that. So again, same thing on that. So, knowing the fact that that's there, a lot of firefighters don't know those intercom systems are there and the code basically talks about it. You mentioned the fact of knowing a little bit about the code too.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of misconceptions that a firefighter, some firefighters, have about the code and I'll give you an example of that is all. Exit doors are supposed to swing outward. No, they're not. They don't. If it's an area, if it's an occupant load of 50 or less, they don't have to. And you get a lot of calls, calls and things about. We were down here doing a pre-plan at this particular location and this door swings in. The occupant load says they can do that. The other thing is the use of the term historical buildings, or I call them hysterical buildings and you look at those codes.
Speaker 2:You look at those codes many times the fact of those buildings have been exempted from modern codes just simply because the historical nature of them and the fact of the exemptions that have been given to them, knowing those situations and when you might run into those problems and things out there. Other things is like firefighters. I tell rookies when I'm teaching them firefighter classes is look, you all of a sudden now are a subject matter expert when it comes to smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors and fire extinguishers. Whether you want to or not, the minute somebody finds out that you're a firefighter, they're going to ask you those questions, and not only the fact of types or when and where and all that stuff, but what size, the particular classifications, all of those things, travel, distance. There's a lot of things that firefighters are expected to know, coming right out of rookie class, by the general public, that if they don't take the code or know anything about the code, it's going to throw them for a loop the first time they get asked.
Speaker 1:Yep, absolutely, and, like I said, the whole purpose of our discussion today is help firefighters to understand that fire prevention isn't in place to make their lives miserable and take fighting fire away from them, but it's to help keep them safe. And having that basic information is very critical and I appreciate you taking time to talk to us about that today.
Speaker 2:One of the classes that I teach is special locking arrangements. It's where I go through the code and explain about mag lock systems and various things like that and folding doors, sliding doors, all that stuff that those subjects are not really hit on a whole lot when it comes in firefighter training and I try to expand upon that whenever I do teach that, to tell firefighters look, it's not necessarily just a doorknob, it's going to be some kind of special system that number one you need to understand how it works. The code says why it's there and be some kind of special system, that number one you need to understand how it works. The code says why it's there and then, more importantly, if you're in a forcible entry situation, how you're going to defeat it and get around it. So that's some other aspects of knowing something about the code. Now it interrelates with forcible entry tactics.
Speaker 1:Yep, and all those things are critical, and if you don't have an understanding of them, you won't be good at your job, and you know that's one of the most important things. There is one code issue that I know that you've encountered one time, and that was when there was a late delivery of a shark pool that was supposed to have been put outside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's that time you tried to kill me. Yeah, you were trying to kill me.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was thinking about that when I was looking at my show notes and I wrote that in the edge of my show notes it says Shark Pool Story. I wanted to get you on here and let people know about that because that is one of I think, the funniest things that I've had a chance to share with a supervisor was the fact that we tried to bump. It didn't work because it wasn't delivered on time.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, the story on that is that when you're doing a final at a at a building it's brand new and you're doing a co inspection and things like that that whenever you open a door you better make sure that there's stairs or steps there. Because, in the sense of what I did once upon a time was doing a CO on a building, I had been opening a door and looking to my left every time for a Knox box that I was trying to figure out where it was or even if there was one there. By the time I went to this, one door marked door, had exit, no signs on the door about don't use it or nothing like that Got the exit sign above it. Fire extinguisher beside of it, pull station was in service. I hit that door and when I hit that door, I opened it up and I was looking to my left to see if the box box was there and I didn't see the fact it was not a set of stairs or landing or nothing.
Speaker 2:Now, mind you, I didn't fall 300 feet or nothing like that. I fell about three and a half feet. God loves fools and firefighters and fire inspectors to some degree, but I ended up landing in such a position that I landed on my feet but I broke my leg and I ended up having to go through that rigmarole workers' comp and all that stuff. It taught me a very important lesson is don't ever assume that word assume. We won't get into what it means, but that word assume don't ever assume the fact that there's stairs and landing on the other side of the door. Even if you've been asked to come out there and do a final inspection, always make sure you look down before you step out. I can offer any advice to inspectors out there is. Don't have a dumb moment like I did and break your leg like a moron.
Speaker 1:We had a lot of fun Not, I will say, at your expense while you were. I was While you were recovering and you were a good sport about it. But that was a story I wanted to tell because that's one of my favorite memories of getting a chance to work with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. I hear there's other fire inspectors out there that they don't mention my name, but they know the story. So whenever they're teaching inspection classes they're like this one fool out here. They tend to get into talking to them about that. But yeah, like I said, I'm a good sport when it comes down to it and, thankfully enough, I wasn't hurt that bad beyond my feelings and, I guess, my pride a little bit. But but true, very important, always look down when you get to walk out a door.
Speaker 1:I was doing an FTC certification a while back and a piece of it come flying at me under pressure and I got soaking wet. I was fine, but from that point on I always jokingly say if the fire inspector gets wet, you fail. So, that's been my thing recently. But, mark, thanks for taking time. If folks want to look you up or find out about you, where can they get a hold of you at?
Speaker 2:If you want to use the hazmat instructor at hotmailcom? H-z-m-t instructor at hotmailcom. That's fine, that's fine. Trust me, I get enough mysterious calls on my phone now that I don't like to publish my phone number out there too much, but at least the hazmat instructor at hotmailcom. I'll be more than happy to talk to you.
Speaker 1:And I encourage people to shoot this man an email. He's got some great information to give out. But before I let you go, I do have a question for you, and this is a tradition on our podcast. Oh, the answer is no.
Speaker 2:No, whatever. No, I'm sorry, go ahead. What?
Speaker 1:Good question for you. Do you know how to catch a squirrel? How?
Speaker 2:to catch a squirrel.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Oh God, just a dad joke.
Speaker 1:You've obviously seen our show before.
Speaker 2:No, I can smell a dad joke, because I'm guilty of using a lot of them. I don't Okay. How do you catch a squirrel?
Speaker 1:You climb a tree and act like a nut oh. I got you Okay okay, I was thinking a little bit more. Share that with your boys.
Speaker 2:I was thinking a little bit more colorful metaphor on that, but I wasn't going to say it.
Speaker 1:No, we're not very colorful or metaphoric here.
Speaker 1:So anyway but I appreciate you taking time to be with us and, as we always say here on the all clear podcast, be sure to light your fire within. You have been listening to all clear firefighter wellness. All clear is presented by the north carolina firefighter cancer lines. You can find out more about us at all clear podcastcom. Leave us a message we'd love to hear from you, like what you hear. Tell someone. All opinions expressed on the podcast do not always reflect the opinions of the podcast. As always, light your fire within.
