All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
All Clear is a podcast that looks at the perils of modern firefighters, especially the physical and mental strains we face. Our goal is to help firefighters ignite The Fire Within and to build the best version of themselves as firefighters. Our conversations are real, sometimes raw but always honest. All Clear is presented by the NC Firefighter Cancer Alliance & First Responders Peer-Support Network.
All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
Firefighters Lifeline: The Crucial Tech Keeping You Safe!
What happens when first responders enter a building and their radios go silent? Discover the life-saving technology of Bi-Directional Amplifier (BDA) systems with our expert guest, Peter Wehretter, VP of Gamma Electronics. Peter walks us through the vital role these systems play in maintaining clear communication for first responders amidst the barriers of steel, concrete, and low E glass. Understand how BDAs amplify and distribute signals, ensuring that emergency personnel can coordinate effectively during critical situations.
Learn to spot the crucial signs of BDA systems in buildings, from the big red boxes with antennas to the smaller panels near fire alarm systems. We highlight the importance of asking the right questions about radio repeater systems during building assessments, especially for newer constructions. Peter also delves into how jurisdictions like Concord make it easy by labeling rooms containing BDAs, emphasizing the need for thorough pre-planning to ensure reliable communication in emergencies.
Finally, we tackle the challenges faced by firefighters in older buildings that lack modern BDA systems and the strategies they use to overcome these obstacles. Peter underscores the necessity of annual monitoring and testing to maintain compliance and functionality. This episode is a must-listen for building owners, authorities, and first responders who bear the responsibility of maintaining these life-saving systems. Don't miss out on this crucial conversation that could make all the difference in an emergency.
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this is all clear firefighter wellness where we help you light your fire. I'm travis, thanks for joining us again on all Today. We have another great guest with us. We have Peter Wehretter. Did I get it right? Yes, sir. Excellent Peter Wehretter, who is a VP with Gamma Electronics, and we have a kind of an unusual topic today, and I'm going to let first of all Peter introduce himself and tell us what he's an expert at.
Speaker 2:What's up guys. My name is Peter. I'm with Gamma. I'm the VP of Gamma. I've been with the company for 18 years now. I'm one of the earliest employees of Gamma Electronics and I have an absolute passion for helping first responders stay safe and stay communicating First of all. That's my passion, that's what I love to do, for helping first responders stay safe and stay communicating First of all. That's my passion, that's what I love to do, that's what I enjoy, and just about everything we do at Gamma helps first responders stay safe through the communication of their backbones and the systems that are inside their in-building communication systems. So that's like, in a nutshell, that's our mission, that's our passion. There's a lot more to it, but that's what I love and that's kind of the crux of, I think, where Travis wanted to go today in this awesome conversation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so I'm going to throw out a couple of. Well, the fire service is famous for using all types of letters to describe stuff. Firefighters may have heard the term BDA, they may have heard the term ERRCS I think that's the other one Emergency Responder Radio Communications but is a repeater system inside of buildings to help firefighters and EMS and police first responders to be able to communicate. And you know, peter, it's important. I can't under, I can't say enough.
Speaker 1:It would be very easy to underestimate the value of good radio communications. It's one thing when you can talk to your guys that are right there next to you, but when you need to talk to somebody that's out of range or you can't hear, radio communication is crucial. And you know the fire code called out for these emergency responder radio systems several years ago and for here in our municipality, for example, they're relatively new. It's not something that we've dealt with a whole lot until very recently. Now we have big warehouses and large industrial complexes that have to have them and I know that you are quite well versed in the BDA systems. That's what I'm going to call them today, if that's okay, and maybe you can help us understand their importance and also how they work, because I can definitely speak to the fact that they are very necessary. But sometimes our firefighters don't even know they're in buildings. So what type of information can you give them to maybe help them identify a building that may have a BDA system in it?
Speaker 2:So I think Travis, a good place to start on this, would be exactly what we're talking about when we're talking about a BDA, if that's all right. So when we refer to BDAs, I think all first responders when they communicate, they know they use a radio right and they're kind of trained on how to use the radio and you know they push buttons to talk and there's there's there's communication that goes back and forth between a and b. Now in their mind, this system, uh, you know, should be working all the time. But we all know first responders, first of all, when they are at work they're not in their fire stations where they can communicate. They're actually out in the field. And when they're out in the field, a lot of the times they're inside buildings. So what the bda does, or a bidirectional amplifier, is it exactly that it's an amplifier that grabs signal, amplifies it and spreads it throughout the building. So when there's a bda, there's also antennas, a lot of antennas, involved, and these antennas are used. Where they grab signal from outside the building, they funnel it inside the building into an amplifier which is called the BDA. There's also battery backup units. There's different brands of BDAs that do different things, that work on different frequencies and the BDA matches the same frequency that the two-way radios are used from the first responders, from your EMS, from your you know, from your fire and from your law enforcement.
Speaker 2:Right, and it's really really important to understand that these BDAs or these amplifiers, are critical backbones for communication inside a building. And the primary reason why is because, in nature, building materials block signal. In nature, building materials block signal. So, if I can help you understand your listeners, when they walk into a building they've ever gone down into, like a basement, for example, or they've gone into a subterranean parking lot, all of a sudden they're on their cell phone and they can't communicate anymore. They can't make a call out, they can't call their friend and they have no signal. Well, this is the same. The same types of signals are what two-way radios are used. They're usually just different frequencies and so, because of that, the same materials that block cell able to communicate inside these systems are necessary in order for them to communicate inside buildings, because all these building materials like steel, concrete, low E glass is a new product. So the more environmental friendly that these buildings get, then the more signal that they block.
Speaker 1:And you know, that's one of the things that I think you know a lot of us don't think about. You know, we know that concrete, we know that steel, we know when you go down in the basement it's like a bunker. You're not going to be able to get out a lot of times with your radio. But you hit a very critical one, that low E glass glass. I did not realize how big of a blocker that actually is for radio signal. But I was over at honeywell at their uh, I guess at their world headquarters here in charlotte for a class on bdas one time and when we actually got we were watching our radios and when we got close to the glass of the building, our, you could see our signal just kind of kind of almost nosedive. And you would think getting close to the glass of the building you could see our signal just kind of almost nosedive and you would think getting close to a window would be better for you. But that is a good point that even glass can be prohibitive to your radio signal sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think and it can be a real point of frustration in my opinion, because you think from a first responders point of view when you show up to a location and you need to talk to your, to your team, and then it's working, then it's not, and then all of a sudden, certain parts of the building is where it's working and then it doesn't.
Speaker 2:And in those instances, more than likely, either the public safety DAS system the BDA is also what we can call it either isn't working or was never installed, and that's where some of those challenges come in. There's a lot of reasons why it may not be there. The building may have been built before code required them to put them in. The authority having jurisdiction may have not even required them to put one in. The authority having jurisdiction may have not even required them to put one in. It may have given them a pass, uh or um, or the system hasn't been monitored properly and uh on a yearly should be on a yearly basis and it may not be working. So, and in my opinion, that puts team members, first responders, in a real pickle, in a real pinch, because they may think that they can't communicate and then they don't, and then something happens, and that's even worse.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting, a lot of firefighters they in fact they may be trying to turn off the podcast right now when I mentioned the word fire code, but you know, a lot of times the fire code isn't just for public safety, but it's also for the safety of us that are in the industry, and a lot of times firefighters may not know that there is a BDA in the building.
Speaker 1:And you know one of the things that is truly important and I hope all of our listeners take note of this when you go out and you do your pre-plans. You go out, you look at a building, you walk through, you figure out where the gas shutoff is, you figure out and you do your pre-plans. You go out, you look at a building, you walk through, you figure out where the gas shut off is, you figure out where the electrical room is, where the sprinkler riser is. At the same time, you need to be looking around for telltale signs of the fact that there's a radio repeater in the building, and it's important for you to understand that now. Now, peter, what are some indicators that there may actually be a BDA system in a building? If you just walk in the door, what would be an indicator that there might actually be one in the building.
Speaker 2:Well, if you just walk in the door, depending on where you are in, for example, new York City, they actually have arc systems. When you first walk in you may not be able to tell that there's a BDA system installed in this building. There would have to be probably a radio room or a dedicated room for the bidirectional amplifier and they have big red boxes. It's usually. You usually will have a brand name on it, something multiple different brands, and that big red box has a bunch of antennas coming out of it and those big red boxes will be the key telltale sign of whether or not it has a system.
Speaker 2:From the outside, looking in, you would never know that a system is there and maybe that's something that can be changed within jurisdictions that they could put signs up on buildings to say that these have active BDAs in them.
Speaker 2:I don't know of any signs that are put up in buildings off the top of my head. So if you're a first responder you really wouldn't have any and that might be something we could talk about. You may have no idea whether or not there's a you know, a working BDA installed in that building to give the first responders confidence, knowing that when they go in they can talk, because the old buildings definitely don't have them. So the new buildings likely would you hope they would right, so that's the only real way to know. I mean to the trained eye, you're not going to see, you're not going to look up and be able to know that, oh, this has an antenna in this hallway and this is an antenna that's got, you know, know, cabling behind it that runs back to that's the runs back to the backbone or back to the bda.
Speaker 1:You would never know well I know in our jurisdiction here one of the things that you will find very frequently, particularly in our newer buildings that do have those types of systems in them. When you go into wherever the fire alarm panel is or the enunciator panel even if you don't see the head unit or that big red box for the BDA the first indicator is going to be the fact that frequently there's a small panel to the right that lists, has like little LEDs and it'll say things like antenna failure, it'll say power failure, battery failure, things like that. If you see one of those, there's a good chance that there is a radio relay system in that building and if there is, you should ask a few more questions like hey, where is this at Now? One thing that here in our jurisdiction in Concord that we do require is that rooms that have BDAs in them actually have the lettering on the door, just like you would a fire alarm control panel or sprinkler riser room.
Speaker 1:We try to make sure that it's indicated when you walk through the building. So we try to make it a little bit easier. We don't put it on the outside of the building, obviously, but the biggest thing that I can say from the industry side is you need to walk around when you do your pre-plan. You need to ask hey, do you guys have a radio repeater system in this building? I cannot speak enough to the fact of how valuable that is. But, peter, did you know? Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, I was going to say so, travis, that's kind of interesting. So, because that's what I thought you were talking about, I thought you were talking about, like initially, when you walk in, so, but there is no. There, as far as you know, there's no indicator like when you would walk in, like they wouldn't, they wouldn't be able to tell, would they? Nope, not unless you ask. Oh, you'd have to ask or you'd have to go to the radio closet or um and find the annunciator, slash BDA yourself.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, none of that, that's fine, because I was like, wow, now, if they did, maybe it would be helpful, I don't know. Well, maybe that would be helpful for for first responders yep.
Speaker 1:That's why it's important for us to get out in our districts, go walk through buildings if there's new buildings. In fact, right now, whenever I'm coing a new building or going through and doing the final inspections, I always encourage the companies hey, come walk through, look see what, see what's going in here. That way they can become familiar with it when there are things like the BDA systems that are in there. But now, peter, I got a question for you. Let's say you have an older building and it does not have a BDA in it. Did you know that firefighters typically plan for a radio failure? Did you know that?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so how did they plan for that? I'm curious.
Speaker 1:Well, this goes back to that thing when you walk through the building, all of a sudden your radio dies. Well, uh, there are ways that you can make it work and you know I'm a ham radio nerd from a long way back, so I know that certain signals, you know, don't pass through certain walls, and you probably know that too, peter. But what happens? When you get two points that are closer together, it's easier for them to communicate to each other. So a lot of times what guys will do? They will actually set the radio up to go point to point. So more or less it's kind of like playing a game of telephone where you'll have one person that's in the area, that's more or less dead to what goes out, then he'll be communicating to another guy that might be at the door and then he'll be communicating to one that's maybe standing outside of the building. So basically they're setting up a chain of communication that goes all the way through. So basically they're setting up a chain of communication that goes all the way through.
Speaker 1:That is one of the things they do and it's important that we always have that in our back pocket. We always want to use the BDA as our first option, because it is the most reliable. But there are ways that we can work around it when we have to, and that's why it's important that when we go in and we train, we need to train with our gear on and we need to train with our radios, because that is just as important many times as an ax, a halogen, even your hose. That's how important that radio is when you have a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't, I can't believe it without any other way. That's, that's kind of interesting. So you know, you know I I'm not a radio, I'm not a two-way radio guy, I'm more on the back end side. So I guess that would matter. On on the help, maybe you can help me understand matter on the, the type of radio system that you have to be able to do sort of a point-to-point uh interaction with each other. And then when you do that, do you not have to communicate from? Like, let's just say you've got a guy at ABC and then someone at the truck. Well, do they have to? They can't talk directly to the guy at the truck, right? So they have to, like play a game of telephone then Is that what it's like?
Speaker 1:Pretty much. And then sometimes you'll see a guy that'll have two radios, one that he's communicating to the dispatch and then one he's communicating back into the building with. So it gets really complicated when these systems aren't in place. But you know one of the limitations that I know that a lot of particularly smaller departments face, and I'm sure you've dealt with this you see departments that maybe have antiquated radio equipment that they carry, maybe their handhelds aren't of, you know, even a digital space at this point, and when you see that older equipment you have to kind of start asking hmm, does this jurisdiction do BDAs? Are they even familiar with what they are?
Speaker 1:So that's one of the things that it's important for firefighters to do, as we mentioned get out in your district.
Speaker 1:It's important for firefighters to do as we mentioned get out in your district, learn your buildings, learn about these BDA systems.
Speaker 1:But more importantly, if you're, say, a paid firefighter at a certain department, if you go to your rural department maybe you're at a volunteer department take that knowledge with you and share that with the guys, because they're less and less common when you get into rural areas. It's more of a thing you see where you know, like for example, here in Concord, north Carolina, where we are we're starting to have taller and taller buildings, we're having bigger and bigger warehouses and bigger and bigger industrial complexes and we're starting to get to the point where some of the buildings are actually starting to block each other and getting close. So signal in some areas is really pinched out and it's important. When you start getting out in areas that are more spread out, you could be having a similar situation, not necessarily with blocking of a signal, but there's just no signal there to amplify. Now here's a question for you, peter If there's no signal available outside of the building, can you make there be signal inside of the building?
Speaker 2:So there, there are ways that you can do that. Now, it's not, it's not a simple, simple, simple process to make that happen, but there are ways where the antenna on top of the roof can grab local signal versus just the macro system, and then you can sort of create a micro BDA system within the building. And so, yes, the answer is there are ways you can do that with the right type of gear and the right type of technology. It would be obviously very unfortunate not to be connected into the macro system, but I would suppose if you're in a very rural area where there are small towns and the macro network either isn't built or it's very poor, that's where you're going to run into. The systems are all all, uh, made it together. I guess you say like, like a sort of like a spider web, I guess you could say where the all the buildings are communicating to with each other.
Speaker 2:Now the problem, like you're talking about, is when you have buildings that are popping up in other regions. They actually can pluck each other and that can become problematic too. So when you could once have even a functioning bda system in one building and then your neighbor decides to put up another building. But there needs to be uh sort of a a point to point. They need to be able to see that the next building and if it's blocked by concrete, steel and other other RF blocking materials, it's going to prohibit that communication. And then all of a sudden you've got to either point at a different tower because they need towers. I think what they, what they forget, is that the antennas on top of the roof are all pointing, or supposed to be pointing, at a macro network and at a tower and that all needs to be adjusted, engaged just right in order for the network to work properly.
Speaker 2:And there are multiple things that can even affect that. Actually, weather is also a big factor involved too. So a problem we had out here in California was it's normally very dry, it's very, very dry, and so the networks are used to working in dry weather. Well, a couple of years ago we had just unbelievable amounts of rain and for systems that are just not used to being wet, and then all of a sudden they're all getting drenched, it's what they call is attenuation, or it causes loss within the system. So those connections outside are critical to be properly weatherproof and protected from the rain so that they don't cause attenuation and problems within the system. But that macro system is critical in larger cities areas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's going to be a little bit more of a challenge to sort of echo that signal from the truck out inside the building through the antenna on the roof.
Speaker 2:If they even have a BDA which I would probably question that they don't If not, they would have to probably use the similar system that you're talking about and use sort of the point-to-point method, which I could see very problematic because all you have is one guy who walks out of sort of the RF signal positioning and then all of a sudden you lost your point in your network and you have guys who are out and they can't communicate, depending on how large the building is and you can also jump into, like college campuses, where it even becomes way more complex. I mean, initially we had the conversation was just around one building, but when you go from building to building man or public schools, where you have large public schools with large buildings, back east they're larger and taller, out west they're shorter and longer. So it just depends on what kind of building you have to have, the type of system that's put into it.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the newer. I'm not gonna say it's new technology, but one of the things that I'm seeing more and more. Now. You do talk about those larger complexes. You know we have a couple of apartment complexes and when I say apartment complex, 15 buildings spread out over acres, and what they actually did because some of the buildings needed BDA, some didn't when they did their initial, you know surveys they actually put a fiber optic loop around the campus and that tags all of those systems together so that you know it really cuts down on the amount of external antennas you need. But you have that fiber loop that's going all the way back to a central head, typically in you know a common location like the pool house or the community center. Or we have a large industrial complex being built now that's got 15 different buildings to it and they're doing the same thing. They're doing a fiber loop around which all ties back into the fire command center so that all of these systems can crosstalk. If there's a failure in one of the nodes, they're able to track it back. So the technology does change a lot, but it is important number one identify if they're there or not.
Speaker 1:And you know the other issue that I've come across and I don't know if you've seen this or not. A lot of times, if you have someone who inherits a building or they take over a building, maybe they were the maintenance chief of a building and you over a building, maybe they were the maintenance the maintenance chief of a building and you know now they're in a new one and there's a BDA in there. A lot of times people don't even know they have them or, if they do, they don't even know what they're for. Have you found that to be the case too? A lot of times, the public, who might be responsible for maintaining these things, aren't sure of what to do with them, particularly when they have a problem.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and part of the reason that is is, you know, fire alarm systems have been required and are required in buildings and you've got sprinkler systems that are required in certain buildings and that's been code for a long time, right, and so people are very aggregated, builders and building owners are very aggregated and used to saying, okay, well, I know I need a sprinkler system because this is required by code. I know it's going to happen, I know it's going to have their, I know I need to have it right. The problem you have is that, in general, the BDA requirements or the, you know, the ERC systems requirements, are relatively new. So there's a lot of people who don't know about this. There's a lot of people who don't know that they are required. There's a lot of people that don't know that they even have them. And so when they take over a new building, and even if it's a newer building, they don't know that they're supposed to be maintaining it.
Speaker 2:That's where you've got fire code that comes in and inspectors that come in and should be requiring that the systems are monitored and tested to make sure that they work on an annual basis. Well then, that would require the AHJ to say, okay, you know what building owner, just so you know. You know, every year we're going to come in and it's going to be tested and it needs to work and if it doesn't, that means you need to make sure that it does and that, unfortunately, could cost them some money. But at the same respect, they have to look at it this way If it doesn't work, you could lose lives because of it. I mean, it saves lives.
Speaker 2:This system is so critical and so important that we've got to get this right. You know, we've got to make sure that they're working and we've got to make sure that there's more words spread about this, of how important that these BDAs are. I can't emphasize that enough that the word needs to get out, which is why we're talking about it today and how we emphasize and let authorities having jurisdiction know that they should be requiring these things. They should learn about them and learn about the basics and try to figure out more about it, whether it be through Honeywell's class or whatever class that might be available to learn about this, so that they can become knowledgeable to the point where they should be requiring them and putting them in buildings old buildings and new buildings. As far as I'm concerned. I think we got to get away from the talk about. They should just be new buildings, because problems happen in old buildings as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know there's two sides to this. From the fire perspective, you know, number one and I can speak to this because I work for our fire marshal's office, the AHJs, the guys that are doing the plan reviews, the guys that are looking at new construction and upfits and things like that renovations they really need to be aware of how these systems work, what they do and of the importance. On the flip side, those guys that are on the line that ride the trucks, the ones that do the pre-plans they need to be aware of how these things work too. They also need to make sure that they understand the importance of knowing they're there. And number two, making sure they know that they are functioning. You know it shocks me because I have heard, you know, in conversations, you know, with BDA installers, because typically the ones we see they come from you know another state, they travel around, they do installations in big cities and small cities and small towns way that the authority having jurisdiction, the AHJ, the fire marshal, whatever you want to call us they have very different ways that they deal with things and I know the first thing that I learned was is that I knew nothing about BDAs when they first came into the code and I have always had to have an open mind when it comes to all right, a systems review and put in.
Speaker 1:What do I need to look for, what questions do I need to ask, how do I need to test? And you know, none of us can be so proud to say, hey, we know exactly how this thing works. Because for those of us that are reviewing plans and things like that frequently, we may have questions and it's important for us to reach out to folks like Peter and Gamma Electronics and the Safer Buildings Coalition. Those guys all are there to help us decode and demystify this For those guys on the line.
Speaker 1:You all know how many times communications has been the make or break for a lot of close calls. We've lost a lot of our brothers and sisters due to failure of communication and they were not able to use a radio to call for help, to get a RIT team in to help them or to even help them locate where they are in the building. So I cannot speak enough for how important these systems are, and you know this is one of those technical topics that you know a lot of people may be bored with, but I cannot say enough how important it is. So, peter, do you have any, I guess any concluding thoughts on what our guys, our brothers and sisters need to know about the BDA systems and their importance?
Speaker 2:So I think the first thing I'd want them to do a good job at reporting back when they have trouble communicating inside buildings, because that can be addressed with you know, your director of radio communications, and then they can bring that back to the building owner, right? So that would be the first thing I would say. So, like, let's find out what buildings they don't work in, right? And if this is for your guys with the boots on the ground, like if they're having problems somewhere, they need to bring that message back and say, hey, I'm having a problem. They can't just walk away from it, because they should be able to communicate with inside buildings or schools. And if they're having issues, well, the right authorities need to know that there are problems so that they can get them resolved.
Speaker 2:Because the last thing we want to do is lose people, whether it be public or whether it be our brothers and sisters, like you're talking about, who are first responders, who put their lives on the line every single day to go out and save other people's lives. We don't want to lose them either, right? So everyone's life is important in this instance. So, report back the ones that don't work, and I think if there was a message that we could say to to uh fire chiefs you know what? Figure out the code, learn about it, learn about why bdas are, are part of the building and should be part of the building and part of the structure, and start requiring it. And and also adopt the most recent code, the NFPA code that they should be using, and learn about them to the point where you can start requiring them.
Speaker 2:And if you don't, there's a lot of resources you can go to, like you mentioned, safer Building Coalitions. That's one of them. There's also other BDA manufacturers in the industry who would gladly do classes and teach about about this topic and help ahjs. Uh, you know, learn about that. So, for there's there's a message up for the boots on the ground they need to report back when it's not working. And when they do work, use them and hopefully they're working right. For the guys who are up above them, uh, who, I would say, are, you know, trying to figure out these systems, learn about them and start requiring them.
Speaker 1:Very good. Well, peter, we appreciate when there's folks you know, with companies like Gamma Electronics, where you are that take enough of an interest in this to try to get out. I know you have your own podcast, das Talk. I've had the privilege of being on there myself, you know. You guys, although it's a very niche topic, it's a very important topic and it can make or break the day when it comes down to an emergency. And especially with the crazy world we live in, with all the active violence and it's not just fires anymore there's all kinds of stuff going on that you know these radio systems will make or break it. So again, I want to say thank you for taking your time to talk to us. But you do know, have you listened to our podcast before? I'm not going to put you on the spot and ask you that.
Speaker 2:I have. I have listened to your podcast.
Speaker 1:So you know, we always ask a question at the end, and I do have a question for you With anticipation. You've heard the joke about the chicken that crossed the road right.
Speaker 2:I have heard the joke, yes, a couple times.
Speaker 1:Maybe only once or twice, you know I've always had trouble understanding it because I could never follow okay, yeah, that was a bad one, that was a real bad one, oh, that's good hey, it's all. It's all I got. I'm not good looking, but at least I got jokes, and they're not that great either. Peter, if people want to get a hold of you, where can they find you?
Speaker 2:at uh. They can get a hold of me at uh. Go to das talkcom and uh. That's where they can find our, our podcast. They can also Google, I guess, go to my name at LinkedIn, or that would probably be another way to find me at LinkedIn. They can search my name there, peter Wehretter, and they'd find me there too.
Speaker 1:No worries. Well, peter, thank you again for taking time to be with us and, as we always say here on All Clear, be sure to light your fire within. You have been listening to All Clear Firefighter Wellness. All Clear is presented by the North Carolina Firefighter Cancer Alliance. You can find out more about us at allclearpodcastcom. Leave us a message. We'd love to hear from you. If you like what you hear, tell someone. All opinions expressed on the podcast do not always reflect the opinions of the podcast. As always, light your fire within.
