All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
All Clear is a podcast that looks at the perils of modern firefighters, especially the physical and mental strains we face. Our goal is to help firefighters ignite The Fire Within and to build the best version of themselves as firefighters. Our conversations are real, sometimes raw but always honest. All Clear is presented by the NC Firefighter Cancer Alliance & First Responders Peer-Support Network.
All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
Foam, Gear, & Protection: A Conversation With Dr. Arash Kesebi
Can firefighter gear save more than just lives? On this episode of All Clear Firefighter Wellness, we uncover the transformative journey of Dr. Arash Kasebi from NC State University, from his days as a volunteer firefighter to becoming a groundbreaking researcher in textile technology. Dr. Kasebi talks about his crucial work in developing fluorine-free gear and enhancing thermal protection, offering a glimpse into the pivotal research happening at NC State's textile lab. We discuss how these advancements aim to address the critical needs of firefighters, especially those in smaller departments grappling with tight budgets.
Ever wondered about the difference between legacy firefighting foams and their modern, eco-friendly counterparts? We delve into the complexities of using fluorine-free foams versus traditional High Fluorine Foams (HFF), emphasizing the skill and precision required for effective firefighting with the newer options. Dr. Kasebi explains the environmental implications and the necessity for rigorous training to ensure these foams minimize ecological harm while optimizing fire suppression. We also touch on essential techniques like rain down, roll-on, and bank-off methods, which are critical for dealing with Class B fires.
Training and health are at the forefront of this episode, as we explore the balance between physical conditioning with and without gear. Dr. Kasebi provides valuable insights into the logistical challenges firefighters face, such as maintaining multiple sets of gear and the importance of practicing with equipment to better simulate real-life scenarios. The conversation extends to ongoing health issues within the fire service, including obesity, cardiac problems, and mental health crises, as well as exposure to harmful substances like PFAS. Don't miss our preview of the SAFER Conference in Raleigh this August, where Dr. Kasebi and his team will present their latest findings. Join us for this essential discussion aimed at enhancing the wellness and safety of our firefighting heroes.
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This is All Clear Fire Butter Wellness, where we help you light your fire with Travis. Thank you for joining us on All Clear. Got Dr Arash Kasebi with us today from NC State University. How are you doing today, my friend?
Speaker 2:Good sir, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:It's a privilege to have you here and I know we've known each other for quite a while. You are with NC State University, one of my probably my favorite basketball team of all time, growing up in North Carolina, but just wanted to reach out to you a little bit. You are involved with one of the most projects, I would say probably in the country right now when it comes to dealing with firefighter health and that's dealing with gear and PFAS, foam and PFAS in gear and all kinds of just crazy stuff over there at NC State at the textile lab. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what you guys are doing, but, more importantly, tell us about your experience in the fire service, because that's what makes you unique for a man that works in academia and is helping to protect all of us.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir. So as part of Dr Orman's research group, we're working in several different areas for firefighters. They range quite widely actually. We do everything from helping the fire service, namely Earth Carolina transition from their legacy HFF firms to the 4A3 films in a way that's safe, in a way that's educational, so that when people get new products they know how to use them. And that goes the same for the fluorine-free gear that's coming out now.
Speaker 2:In the United States that's replacing the PFAS-containing gear that has the fluorocarbon or fluoropropylen finishes that block both oil and water. But we also do different types of projects that involve anything from thermal comfort thermal protection. We are working with wildland firefighters to figure out what kind of respirator would be a sweet spot for them to have some level of respiratory protection while they're doing anything like wildland firefighting out in California Things like that. For me, it started actually quite a while ago as far as my contribution to fire service. To be honest, it started on a whim after my freshman year in college. I did not have anything to do the summer after my freshman year. I thought let's do something fun. I loved volunteering in high school, so why not do that? What's a little bit of danger attached to that? I joined the Bay Week Fire Department around 2014. And then went inside one of the burn buildings where you do your rookie school, where they have the propane torches and they you know so then on fire and you have to put it out. I just remember walking out of that burn building and realizing that, wow, I'm still alive, like I don't have any scratches. I'm on scapes For me. It got me curious about what was it about the gear that made you be able to just go through all that heat and still be okay?
Speaker 2:At the time I was actually a different major. I wasn't anything textile or anything. I was actually a paper science major, of all things. It was a cool major in that it was a well paying when you get out of undergrad. My brother did it, my uncle did it, so I thought let's give it a try. But when I saw the flames and also what protected me from the flames, I thought I could probably just change the majors and do something a little bit cooler. So up until senior year I was actually doing textile technology as a major, but not particularly fire protection. I was actually concentrating on medical textiles. But then I'm ending my senior year out pretty well. It'd probably be good to finish with some student organization meetings.
Speaker 2:I do my thing, I do my due diligence as someone who's on their way out of NC State. And one of those meetings was none other than Dr Orman, who said that he had a project that was for firefighters and related to firefighter hoods, namely the particular bonding hoods. And it was quite a lucky day because I told him that's great, I have one of those particular bonding hoods. I just got one that day. And then Dr Orman said, cool, well, we have positions available for grad school. So I thought, all right, cool.
Speaker 2:And then that week that month basically signed up for grad school. So I thought, all right, cool. And then that week that month basically signed up for grad school and then from there we went on our way as a both a work and also a personal relations show. Since then, I've been working on many different projects. The first one that I worked on was the firefighter hood project, where we looked at the durability of the firefighter hoods, both the knit ones and and also the ones that are out now that have the particular quality barriers in them. And since then I've taken across different projects throughout the years, put on many different hats, but many of which have made some level of impact to departments who have the standards and things like that Stuff that I didn't believe I would be able to do five years ago.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting to give a little bit of backstory for folks that maybe aren't from North Carolina. Textiles have been very important to the development of the state of North Carolina throughout history. Being able to see NC State University taking so seriously this unique application of textiles and that is protecting firefighters and how far that goes. I know that we have worked with you guys quite a bit on developing some of the information that we've provided over the years with Dr Barker and Dr Brian Ormond, who hopefully we're going to get on here before too long. He's a super cool guy to talk to as well.
Speaker 1:But when you look at how fire departments operate, it sounds like you volunteer at an organization where you may not be a paid firefighter. Maybe the budget isn't as large at a smaller department as a paid one like a Charlotte or a Raleigh or something like that smaller department is a paid one like a Charlotte or a Raleigh or something like that. What challenges do you think having a small funding? What challenges do you think that presents? When it comes to start talking about cleaning of gear? When we start talking about these different things that you're just talking about, you guys are putting all the science into. How does that translate down to the volunteers that are maybe listening today? That are in a small department that might only have 20 or 30 members?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think when making these different changes to implement better practices for being cleaner, a lot of times we jump to the extremes of the argument where if we think that we have to be clean, we have to do all of these different extreme measures such as getting the best washer extractor or cleaning unit humanly possible.
Speaker 2:But a lot of it can come down to behavioral aspects, many of which we're ingrained in with our routines, with the way that we've been trained, through the academy, through the department. A lot of it is just chiseling away the different types of things that are harming us bit by bit. The hard part is doing too much too soon, because through that it can get pretty dicey as far as your departmental SOBs go, as far as what other agencies in your district are doing, because it might not be compatible if one department does a wet decon and another one just saves the heck away from that. But if anything, it's something that has to be coordinated from the top down, meaning that everyone from the probationary member to the chief to make this work has to be very invested and any extra measures are taken for having contamination levels and being healthier in general.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. And you bring on a very good point about doing too much too soon. In 2000, I can't remember if it was 2016, 2017, I went to I'm an IAAI certified investigator and I was teaching at the North Carolina conference that year and we were talking about cancer among investigators, talking about best practices. We were going through talking about wet decon in your gear, don't put your stuff in your SUV with you, put it in the back of the truck or put it in a sealed container things that we take for granted now. And it was interesting because I heard I don't know who it was, but somebody from the back said man, more stuff I got to do, and it was looked at as more of a burden to take those small steps. But if we step back now, we see that some of those steps aren't as impactful as we thought, but some of them are more impactful, even the smaller stuff. So do you think that changing culture in the fire service would probably reduce the exposures that we're seeing in our industry?
Speaker 2:I think, from both the individual level to the department level and anyone that's observing us as an industry, it would be best to go through a little shift in the culture, but when, like you said, when someone hears that we got to do something different, they maybe think to the extreme that everything about their job, as they know it, is going to change, but really a lot of that stays the same. It's just like any other training that you go through. You're always learning something more and with that, even though this is not something that's particularly firefighting related, when you're in the Red Zero or you're in IDLH, it is something that is one of the things that can kill you. And we say a lot of the times when you can't train enough for a job that can kill you. And doing these mundane, these annoying tasks, are no different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes, like you say, just the mundane things, like when you're going to wash your gear at the station and you're going to take it apart, put some gloves on, put some rubber gloves on, wear some respiratory protection when you throw your stuff in the washer. I know that seems really simple, but guess what? That is a huge reduction in the washer. I know that seems really simple, but guess what? That is a huge reduction in your exposure. And that's one of the things that we've tried to preach since the beginning is, it's not the big changes that make the differences, it's the small things, and one of the things that I had the opportunity to discuss with a few guys was about the concept of a clean cab. How many times have we heard oh, don't get in there with your boots on, You'll get the floors dirty and we'll have to clean it.
Speaker 1:A clean cab is very important, but is a clean cab a reality? We all know that it's not because our air packs are dirty. Our boots have something on them, but guess what? If we make the effort to wipe it down, it helps a ton. So it's a small thing, but when our expectations are very real, we can see the difference. But when it comes to deconing and washing gear and things like that, how effective is washing down your gear, just hosing it maybe a little bit of proof soap or whatever on the scene before you even bag it up and go back to the station? How effective is that in getting those particulates that we're exposed to knocked down?
Speaker 2:I don't have the numbers in front of me, but from what we've seen consistently it's been pretty significant. The way that some of us look at it is thinking about when you just finish a plate of food and you still have some of the residuals of the food on your plate. If you leave the plate by itself and let that food stay on there, what happens? It takes on there, it gets harder to take off and be able to get as much of that gunk off on the scene. More importantly, on the scene and leaving as less contamination that you can take back to the station when you ride back on the rig. So anything like that makes it so much more. It was so much more out the window as far as what you're contaminating.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and it's those small accumulated exposures that make the big difference. But I know that one of the areas that you have worked very specifically with outside of gear washing and decon and things like that is recently you've been dealing a lot with PFAS foam. I know that's something that every firefighter's got on their minds. Now it's in my gear, it's in the environment, it's going to kill me, it's going to be the end of me. There is some truth to that, but at the same time, there's a lot of truth that sometimes is blown up a little bit, I believe. But when we talk about the PFAS in foam, you are probably one of the smartest people in the world when it comes to dealing with that and how it's mitigated and the new technologies and things that are out there. What are some of the things that you can tell us about that might be a new thought to firefighters that maybe haven't had exposure to it? Or what are some of the new technologies that are out there that departments need to be thinking about to start reducing our exposures?
Speaker 2:The first thing to note is the differences in performance between the newer phones that are out there and the legacy HFF, the foreign free phones. You often hear them being called F3 or SFFF. They are phones that, unlike the HFF, they do not have film forming aspects, meaning that for firefighting purposes you are solely relying on the phone blanket to do the job of firefighting on class B fires. A lot of times the question I get with many different types of firefighting products is which one's the best? And, like a lot of doctors out there, our favorite answer is it's complicated. So yeah, they don't like that answer, but yeah, that's what the reality is, because the floral repellency in our gear, as well as the film that can separate the fuel from air in a class B fire it just works so phenomenally from a performance perspective. But that said, the newer foams they can perform as well.
Speaker 2:It takes more time to extinguish. You had to put more foam on there. Might need more foam concentrate for the same amount of fire to put out as you would for a triple S bucket of foam. So when looking at that, you have to understand that a lot of the complacency and firefighting techniques cannot occur. You have to be able to know how to apply that foam in a way that's even, that's not going to disrupt the foam blanket or anything like that, but also understanding just your fundamentals, because a lot of times when they chunk people on the foams, whether or not it's F3 or H of the left, they're using the same principle and those are the same ones, or right on for decades. The only difference is that you can't be as lazy with it anymore. Without that film. You have to have higher skill, more training, more awareness of how that film is going to be able to do its job. I know when I was going through my recruit training one of the classes we had was clone.
Speaker 1:And, honestly, day and a half later, you're an expert. I doubt I'm not, but they were teaching us all. Right, this is how you put it together. This is how you mix it. This is how you clean it up. What additional training is necessary now, when we start talking transitioning to these new, different types of fumes?
Speaker 2:I would say is understanding that even though there's no PFAS in the newer foams, they're still toxic. They're still able to kill wildlife if they go into a stream and the same way that not the same way, but in a similar extent they can destroy a lot of wildlife as HFF would. The only difference is that it's not as persistent as HFF, meaning that HFF will go into rivers, go into an ecosystem and it'll basically stay there until we find a way to remove it. But with the newer foreign tree films, a lot of them are basically glorified soaps. A lot of them are biodegradable, meaning that after the fact, they're eventually going to break down and maybe you'll have wildlife back in the ecosystem again the way it was before.
Speaker 2:So it's good to know that you shouldn't be using this stuff for brushing teeth or shot glasses. You should still be using this stuff very cautiously, but also sticking to those main types of firefighting techniques Knowing how to do the rain down, knowing when to do the rain down, knowing when to use the roll-on method, knowing when to use the bank-off method, because with these newer foams you have to know which one to apply and when, because sometimes people will just lob foam down a range and put it on a fire, but all those bubbles that are landing on that fire just being all scattered. It's immediately just destroying the foam on contact, whereas now you actually have to be able to collect some foam using the roll on method and have a bunch of that blanket move and carry a bunch of those bubbles in unison in a big spread, versus just adding job webs to a buyer. So there is a technique to it, but there is a lot of order and all that chaos. It's just a matter of knowing when to use those techniques.
Speaker 1:And once you know your limits and know your approach, it's a lot more effective and a lot less intimidating. One of the terms that I hear so much now are green foams. That's a term that everybody's. Oh no, this isn't a PFAS-based foam. This is a green foam or an eco foam. How true. I know you said some of it's not real great for the environment and it can still cause problems. Is that another term that kind of covers those same type of transitional foams, or is it? Is that a whole different class into itself?
Speaker 2:It's a different type of certification that industry uses. If you can go to a Costco or a Target, you'll see different tags on things like your pillows or your blankets and they have different certifications saying that they're from this country. They have this level of quality in the cotton, things like that, but necessarily always government regulated. So a lot of the certification comes down to what's in between the lines. But at the same time a lot of us can get overwhelmed with the test results and the different types of marketing displays that show one phone to be greener than the other. So one of the main ones that they use for free phones is called green screen and with that they have a series of tests that they'll do to see how well it reacts to some viability to the environment, different types of lab procedures and reports. But with that I don't think it's worth the change and caution that you should be taking.
Speaker 2:So even if foam says that it's the greatest thing in the world as far as the ecosystem goes, remember what you're washing away.
Speaker 2:Even though the foam may be the cleanest type of soap or foam possible, some of which we actually found out from Japan, is actually edible. Yeah, that was a fun video. But remember you're washing away something that's oddly toxic or likely toxic. So even though something that you're washing it with may be very clean, remember that you're washing something that's probably harmful for you, the environment and property. So with that, it's good to not get too caught up in the sort of occasions of that and knowing what you can do with that foam on the sour ground as far as its limitations go, its performance, but also keep an eye on things like price and how you should store another foam, because some foams have different viscosities. Some foams should never be mixed, some foams are just not compatible with certain systems and inductors. So it's good to be able to match the right furrow concentrate with the right equipment and also making sure that anyone that's going to have their hands on that nozzle knows exactly how to use it.
Speaker 1:So when you start talking, about using these foams and the inductors and and things like that, that and the mixing do these have any residual materials left behind, for example in the trunks or the tanks or anything like that they're used with. Are there any major concerns for that, or is it actually a lot cleaner than the stuff we see that's been used in the past?
Speaker 2:I would say it's too early to say at this point. For the driver operator on the pump payroll, I think as far as the PPE goes, I don't think they're going to need a respirator for this. I think for the most part, as long as they're not washing their hands with that foam, they can continue doing work as usual. They can continue pritching the holes in the buckets and knowing how to pump the right percentage of concentrate to the water streams.
Speaker 1:With all of that, we talk about the need to decon our gear after we're exposed to a fire, to the particulates and stuff like that. In your professional opinion, is it important to maybe decon our gear after we utilize foam, especially now if there's still some of the PFAS based foam? Is it a good idea to wash and clean our gear to some level after we've had exposure to even the foam agents? I think so.
Speaker 2:Yes, a lot of times when we're using that foam agent especially with the gear now where we're not even sure how this newer, non-intentionally added to PFAS or the PFAS free gear performs over time, we want to make sure that anything that gets on gear is washed as soon as possible Because we at this point in the research community don't know exactly what the long-term repercussions of that are.
Speaker 2:But we do want ourselves and the fire service to use is intuition to understanding that if we get something that probably isn't good for us to eat or have on our hands, we want to wash it off to get us as early as possible. And also think about what else you're exposed to on the fire ground. There's some times where you're upwind from a class B fire and then the next second you see a big cool of smoke coming your way and you're downwind from it and that case obviously you're going to wash your gear, or should wash your gear because of the smoke. But yeah, just like smoke, if I get exposed to it, I would myself wash my gear eventually, likely at the end of that show if.
Speaker 1:I had to, and that's the whole thing. And it's interesting when we go back and we talk about how complicated foam, how complicated it is to clean gear, how complicated is it. My grandmother used to tell me wipe your feet before you come in the house, wash your hands before you eat, wash your hands after you use the bathroom, eat, wash your hands after you use the bathroom. Just basic cleaning and sanitation will eliminate so many of these problems or at least reduce it down to the point that it's not a problem. It's really amazing. We're not having to reinvent the wheel, it's just reinventing how we're doing stuff. It's amazing how, how the world isn't as complicated as we make it out to be sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I'm sorry, go over.
Speaker 1:No, I was going to say it's not near as complicated as we, as we need to be, and I think I like where you're going, I think I know what you're going to say, but, as kids, yeah, as kids you would come in all muddied up.
Speaker 2:You got a lot of dirt on you, you did God knows what you did. But what do you do after that? You hit the clothes off, you permanent the washer, your mom scolds at you as you get in the shower and then you just carry on throughout your day. Uh, but that's basically the same concept that we have here. Uh, differences now is more of on the administrative side of if we wash our gear, do we have other controls in place? Do we have a second set of gear? Do we have gear that we can use? That's department issue. That may do for that time. Things like that have to be figured out. Or should we figure out eventually where we can't just have one set of gear that we rely on and there is a problem for our departments? It is something to work toward going down the line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in that same vein and we discussed this a little bit before we hit the record button we were talking about using your gear for training. One of the biggest issues that the fire industry faces are things such as obesity, cardiac issues, lack of physical activity. I know that seems really strange, but it's really a problem in some areas. And when we start talking about, okay, we're going to go out and we're going to train with our gear on, some people get a little freaked out at that thought no, I'm not putting my gear on until a structure fire. Is it safe to train with your gear on? Is that a good thing to do or is it a bad thing? Don't ever put it on unless you absolutely have to. What? What's the professional take on how to look at that?
Speaker 2:I think the way to look at it is to be able, in a secret manner, to practice the way that you would play. So, for example, if I get any type of new PPD or any type of new equipment, even if it's like a radio strap, I'll put my gear on and, just like I would on the rig and make sure that everything works. That if I have a glove strap in a certain area, is that going to get in the way of the way that I operate on the fire ground With that? It's important to be able to mimic as much as you can as far as your training goes. So, whether that's dragging hose, whether that's doing ladders, deploying ladders or really anything that is covering your firefighter one and two classes, it's good to have that gear on so you're able to understand what you're limited to as far as your range of motion, as far as your thermal comfort, as well as things like your motion, as far as your thermal comfort, as well as things like your vision, because when you have that SVA mask on, the force of entry door looks a little bit different, especially when you're trying to look down at the irons and trying to get them all worked out and with gloves on. So a lot of times we're touted to wear gloves on so that we understand the dexterity or the lack of using those gloves. That, where it goes on, so that we understand the dexterity or the lack of using those gloves that's very important.
Speaker 2:But as far as things like physical training meaning you're just running, you could be powerlifting, you could be weightlifting, doing Pilates, yoga I don't think that it's much of benefit to be able to put the gear off as much as being able to do as well as you can doing those different activities as you would as just a regular single at a box gym or something like that. Because a lot of times when you're wearing that gear you're not getting the most out of what your body can do. Your limitation is how much your body can take in doing that activity with that gear. So being able to push yourself is important for those types of activities such as running and lifting, and you shouldn't let the gear hamper your ability to get better in those areas.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I was talking to one of my coworkers a while back and he was talking about how he likes to push himself to failure when it comes to physical training and that kind of caught me off guard for a minute. But he said no, I really want to know how many pushups can I do in my gear? How far can I go in my gear? How long? How many flights of stairs can I go? Gear how long? How many flights of stairs can I go? He said I would rather fail now at practice than fail on game day.
Speaker 1:It's more important to know what you can do on your gear. But at some point when we start increasing our core strength and things like that, you don't necessarily need your gear on with that. So I can definitely see the value in balancing out how we're, how we're training and things like that. But our gear is a necessary evil. Foam is a necessary evil. It's part of the way the fire service works now and hopefully at some point it'll become less and less impactful for us.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that frustrates me is when I go to a fire conference or read a magazine fire service magazine there's always a crisis. That's cool at the moment. It used to be cancer. Cancer is still a big issue, but whoa, it's mental health now. Mental health, okay, yeah, that's a problem, but what about this PFAS stuff? There's always something that we're running to try and protect ourselves from or worry about, and there's so many topics now that we have to start putting all the pieces together and through work like you guys are doing up there at NC. And there's so many topics now that we have to start putting all the pieces together and, through work like you guys are doing up there at NC State, you're really putting these small pieces together to help make a big picture of what we all need to do. Academia, what would you say is the biggest piece of advice that you could give out to firefighters to help them be better prepared and able to do their job better?
Speaker 2:The biggest piece of advice I would give would be to get the fundamentals down. As far as health goes, that means doing the basics getting the right amount of sleep per night, trying to quit smoking, eating well and, like many people don't, drinking lots of water, staying hydrated. People give me a lot of crap for carrying around a gallon jug of water yeah, the one that says they have to drink a lake of water by 3 pm, but I drink it and I feel great a lot during the day and I don't get headaches or anything like that but also just getting those pillars down as far as the basics of what your body needs. You could do all the different types of decon measures in the world, but you still had to keep in mind that there's other things to consider. You could do all those things and still be a chain smoker.
Speaker 2:You could yeah, exactly you could wear your respirator the entire call and you might just fall, fall flat from not drinking water the last two weeks and just relying on just food for it. So being able to get those basics down is number one as far as your health goes. And that's just not as a firefighter, that's just as a human being being able to take care of yourself, because a lot of times we're tied as firefighters it's me, we them. So it's the same way with firefighter health. In order for you to help others and your teammates the best way you can, you'd make sure that you're in the best shape that you can probably be in with your abilities and with your situation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and those are definitely words to live by and you'll talk to folks all around the industry and it's not that far off from what you're saying. You got to get the basics down, so it sounds like y'all are doing a lot of good stuff over there at NC State. If people want to find out about the projects you're working on, maybe contact you, your team. What would be a good way to handle all that? I know we'll have some stuff in our notes, but what are some good things that we could do to find you?
Speaker 2:You can find the Ormond Research Group's website at ormondresearchtextilesncsuedu. From there, we have a website where we talk about who our team is, the different types of projects. We're on any news that we have, and we're also going to have different types of resources there that are for not only what the projects are and what we do, but also how you can be part of different types of studies or cohorts, such as the cohort study that's about to happen in North Carolina, or cohorts such as the fieldwork. So that's about to happen in North Carolina, where we're actually going to test our fighteries for their health over a very long period of time, very similar to how Arizona does it right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm excited. I got a chance to sit in on one of the advisory board meetings on Monday for that, and Cancer Alliance is involved with what you guys are doing with that. So it's very exciting to see things coming down, especially for the state of North Carolina. But I think around the country and around the world everybody's going to benefit from what we're learning. We appreciate you taking time talking to us, but I do have a question for you real quick before you go.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, anything.
Speaker 1:Do you know why a Tyrannosaurus rex cannot wave? No, sir. They're extinct.
Speaker 2:That's pretty good.
Speaker 1:It's pretty bad actually. We always try to sleep.
Speaker 2:I mean, I also get to sleep tonight.
Speaker 1:but yeah, you'll wake up at two o'clock in the morning thinking about a T-Rex waving at you. But anyway, hey, arash, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it today and, like I say, I'm sure we're going to be talking to you and your team a little bit more as we go forward and if anybody's going to be in Raleigh coming up in August for the SAFER Conference, I'm sure you and your team will be around and can come visit us at our booth. So there's a lot of cool things going and we appreciate you letting us have a peek at what's going on at NC State and some of the great things in the academic side of protecting firefighters. Anyway, thank you again to Rosh and, as we always say here on our podcast, light your fire within. You have been listening to All Clear Firefighter Wellness. Thank you, if you like what you hear, tell. So All the fitness expressed on the podcast do not always reflect the opinions of the podcast. As always, light your fire within.
