All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
All Clear is a podcast that looks at the perils of modern firefighters, especially the physical and mental strains we face. Our goal is to help firefighters ignite The Fire Within and to build the best version of themselves as firefighters. Our conversations are real, sometimes raw but always honest. All Clear is presented by the NC Firefighter Cancer Alliance & First Responders Peer-Support Network.
All Clear - A Firefighter Health & Wellness Podcast
Success Beyond The Firehouse with Clive Savacool
Embark on a journey through the fluid world of firehouse leadership with Clive Savacool as we dissect the art of guiding a multi-generational team. Clive's decades of firefighting wisdom are matched only by his entrepreneurial savvy, offering a rare glimpse into adapting leadership styles to the ever-changing needs of both veterans and rookies. Tune in for a masterclass on communication and mentorship, where the resonance of example-setting leadership is brought to the forefront, capturing the essence of service that transcends age and experience.
As we navigate the intersection of emergency services and the digital landscape, we unravel the complexities of managing a fire department with the acumen of a seasoned CEO. The conversation is a deep exploration of the pivotal role that social media now plays in our lives, akin to the revolutionary impact of email, and its influence on the transparency and reach of today's fire services. This episode illuminates the delicate balance between command authority during crises and the cultivation of a feedback-rich environment during the calm, fostering a culture where every firefighter's perspective fuels innovation and growth.
Closing out the episode, we tackle the often overlooked, yet critical transition to retirement, viewing failure as a profound teacher and embracing the quest for life's next purpose. Clive's insights into effective leadership beyond the constraints of bureaucracy resonate with an inspiring call to action, igniting an internal passion that drives success both within and beyond the firehouse walls. As we share this candid conversation, we hope to light a fire in the hearts of first responders and leaders, encouraging a legacy of excellence and a life of fulfillment.
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This is All Clear Firefighter Health and Wellness, where we help you light your fire within. This is Travis. Hope you're doing good today. Thank you for joining us on All Clear. We've got a wonderful guest today. We've got Clive Savakul and he is from the San Francisco Bay Area. How you doing today, Clive? Good? Thank you for having me. Hey, no, it's a pleasure. So I tell you what I know. You've got a very long resume and a very distinguished one. I'm going to let you lead us off and tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll run it from there.
Speaker 2:Sounds good. I started out very young as a reserve firefighter in the San Francisco Bay Area, got my medical license at 20 and was part of a big department in the San Francisco Bay Area called Contra Costa County Fire District Huge department. And then I moved on from there to create a startup company to track exposures for firefighters and then from there I became a fire chief in your Sacramento and then finished off my career as the fire chief at South Lake Tahoe and I left there two years ago to start a software company again for tracking narcotics for paramedics. That company's called LogRx and so that's my full-time gig now. But yeah, 25 years in the fire service and now I've moved on to the private sector.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of our brothers do that. Whenever they get near that last section, they take what experience they've gained and look for ways to make it work for them and make the world a little better place at the same time. So very good. So one of the things that I know about you is that leadership is something that is a passion of yours. I think it's something that you're very knowledgeable about, and one of the conversations that several folks have had with me offline over the last year or two is starting to talk about the variations in generations.
Speaker 1:We see in the fire service I'm Gen X myself We've got millennials working for us and it just seems every couple of years we've got a new group of folks that are coming in through rookie school, and it can be challenging, I think, sometimes to be able to transmit our missions to these folks and help them to excel, because then how can I put this tactfully the needs of some of the younger folks are a little different than the needs that I had, because when I came in, it's hey, this is what you're going to do, and nowadays we get questions sometimes why are we going to do that? And that's one of the challenges, I think, regardless of where we are in the country, that we see in the fire service and I was wondering if you might be able to speak to some good strategies that we could use as we deal with different generations of firefighters now in the fire service.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's a great question and I think all the other fire chiefs and chief officers I talk with, without exception, say that's a struggle and it's not that the newer generations are, I would say, worse than ours, the generation X. In some ways they have some benefits. I think it's just because there's such a sharp contrast in how we were raised and how we'd take direction is a good example. A quick, short story when I was a new firefighter, contra Costa Fire, we had about 300 firefighters and you know how firefighters gossip, and I remember at one point someone said man, did you hear Firefire? So, and so they talked back to Captain Ferrani that grass fire in Anyok, this other side of the county, and we're hearing a rumor about how a firefighter talked back to a captain and of course the captain let him have it and yelled at him and he ran up the hill with a hose. But you can see the exception back in late 90s of versus today, when you just mentioned how firefighters sometimes ask why and when, I'm sure, just like me, when you were hired, you didn't ask questions, if anything, when you're given an order, you just repeated it and then said yes, sir, yes, ma'am, did it. So yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is very different, and the one thing that makes the biggest difference for fire chief nowadays in a leadership position is communication. I feel like when I was young, if I was told something once, then I was told it. If I didn't understand, I would ask them to repeat it. But you felt bad if you asked them to repeat the time. Now it's not just telling them, it's reminding them and going over why you're doing it, explaining the benefits.
Speaker 2:If they have input and feedback, which millennials and Gen Zs love to give their thoughts, which isn't bad. They've got great ideas, but they need to be felt hurt like they're being hurt, and so if you don't go that route that they suggest, then it's you have to explain why you're taking the course that you are, and as a fire chief, I ended up spending way more time communicating with the staff than I ever got from chief officers when I was new In the 15 years or so, as it contra costed fire. Not once did the fire chief ever come by my firehouse. I never once saw him until I became the union vice president. So it's just a different culture now, and so communication is the biggest tool you can use to make sure that you're meeting their needs and that they're getting the proper direction that they want and the ways they were raised.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. One of the things that I've seen with every class of new recruits we have come through, regardless of their age, because we'll have mixed classes it'll have folks that are maybe 35 years old, all the way down to once that are fresh out of high school, and they all seem to have a common core they want to serve, they want to be in the fire service, because this is not a job you get into just for the money because, trust me, it's not there. But they have this common belief. Yes, I want to make things better, but sometimes, if you're willing to lead and you're willing to get in the trenches with them and show them how to do it and you gain their trust and, like you said, communicate. I think that has that goes a long way as well is if we're able to demonstrate that we're willing to do it ourselves and we're not just asking.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's a great point. Leading from the front is pretty essential. I think that newer generations are more apt to look at what's on the plate next to them and I think it's just more spatial awareness. They're wanting to know how others are measuring up.
Speaker 2:But I made the point when I was at South Lake Tahoe and Garden Valley Fire District, where I was a fire chief for four years before South Lake Tahoe, that every single day, even if it was for 15 minutes, whatever I could squeeze into my schedule, I would go to the gym at the firehouse and work out, just so that they could see that the fire chief himself is making sure that he has time.
Speaker 2:As busy as I was, as long as my days were, I still made time to go down to the gym because that was a big issue for me, with the fire fighters saying it was important to me that they all exercise, they all stay healthy, not just for the physical aspects but the mental aspect of being able to go in there, blow off steam in the gym and get back to work. And so just a little example like that. It's critical that and I think that goes for all generations. I would have loved it. I remember battalion chief Palmer at Contra Costa Fire. I would see him come and work out of the gym with us and it left a big impression on me. It's okay, he cares, and so I think leading from the front is essential for all generations.
Speaker 1:I know we did an episode a while back that my former chief, ray Allen, who also sits on the board with our nonprofit. He talks about leadership lessons learned through the mini series Band of Brothers, going through the Dick Winner's approach to lead from the front. But one of the things that I appreciate about Ray is the fact that he loved to run and if we were out running or whatever, he was there with us and there were times that he would go do his run and there would be somebody that maybe was coming in a little bit later. Hey, I'll go run with you. And his whole thing was I'm willing to do it, you be willing to do it, you do your best, I'll give you my best. And that really goes a long way when you see that those from the top down are willing to bite in on the overall program.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's interesting when we start looking and younger generations tend to be more technologically inclined things like Instagram and Facebook and whatever the kids do these days. I'm not a social media guy. They love it and I know in our case in Concord, where I'm at, we've utilized some of those skills so that our social media presence has been a little bit more effective than it was when the old guys were running it and things like that. But do you think that playing to the strengths of the newer generations, it makes them feel more appreciated? Do you think that's a way that we could maybe make them feel more inclusive, utilizing their unique skills?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's also the way they communicate, and so if you don't utilize that, there's gonna be an information vacuum, and if you don't fill it, somebody else will, and so they're gonna get information from social media one way or the other.
Speaker 2:So it's in your best interest as a fire chief to be on there, if not you directly, having somebody else, like a PIO, who's in charge for the department, somebody tasked with doing the social media aspect.
Speaker 2:I think that I'm really big on running a fire department like a business, and one of the things that we fail at times as a fire chief is marketing, and so what social media has done is created a great opportunity for free marketing, and so the more you can get out there and promote your business, which is the fire department, the better you look to the public, and your firefighters care how you look to the public, and so if they wanna see that you're being very proactive and promoting a positive image of the organization, and so engaging on social media is key. I'm not a big social media guy at South Lake Tahoe I just assigned my PIO to it, but I made sure to keep tabs and get updates, with one big asterisk of having a social media policy, cause you wanna be very clear on what's allowed and what's not allowed on there. But yeah, if you're not using social media which I don't like it, but I use it because you have to nowadays Yep it is a form of communications.
Speaker 1:I remember when emails were new and it's like whoa, I can send somebody a letter immediately that shows how old I am. But look at where we are now and yeah, social media can be very like you mentioned. It can be a very powerful tool for good, but at the same time, I've seen it be used in a very destructive way, often unintentionally, with bad consequences. It's just one of those things. You gotta balance it out. But it's interesting that you talk about running the fire department like a business, and I've never really thought about your social media being like marketing. So what are some other ways that utilizing a business model for a fire department might could apply? So maybe to hiring or something like that, or recruitment.
Speaker 2:That's actually a really big one.
Speaker 2:One of the great things about running a business when you start from the ground up is you get to plant your own garden, you get to build it with the people you want, you get to seek out the traits you want, you get to fill the areas you want.
Speaker 2:And, as a fire department, one of the biggest factors of running an agency like a business is accountability, and I mean that in a good way. You have to have a high bar, but if you come into an agency where there has not been any accountability, you're in for an uphill battle. And in a business, if you don't have good accountability especially if you're a startup you're gonna fail, you're gonna go out of business, and so you need to make sure that, as an organization, you embrace accountability as a good thing and that you lift everybody up and you make sure everyone's taking care of their jobs. If they're not, why aren't they? And how can you help them to accomplish that? And so accountability is a huge one that comes into play with running a fire department, and it isn't always fun. Sometimes you have to be the chief that they need, not the one that they want, and it's a necessity. Otherwise, like I said at the business, you'll fail. You don't have good accountability. So that's another really big factor of running a department like a business.
Speaker 1:And I think you just hit on an important point. I think you have and I've heard several folks say this that at times you have to be the boss. When you say, okay, this is what we do, particularly if you're dealing with, say, an emergency response, you have to be the boss and there's really no time for negotiation. But then there's times that you can be a leader that takes into consideration what's being requested and things like that, and that's where that communication will come into play. So sometimes you have to balance the two roles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always tell my guys hey, the fire ground is not a democracy. Afterwards we'll have a critique. After every single fire we'll have a critique. Even if everything went really well, there's always thinking we can improve. But it's not a democracy the rest of the time. I would always. I always had an open door policy. I'd love to get feedback just to hear how things are going with the people in the field and you get great insight of what they're dealing with to help you make decisions as a fire chief. Yeah, but be either. You're right, there's definitely a difference between the fire ground and and then the day to day operations.
Speaker 1:If you're looking at the critiques that maybe your guys are giving back to you, your girls are giving back to you, what types of things should you look for? It's almost like a satisfaction survey with the business that they tell you what they like, what they don't like. What are some things that maybe you would be surprised to find out that your firefighters do and they don't like? Maybe that their chiefs are doing? That question makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oftentimes I'll look at what's their motivation. Why are they making this request? What is their feedback? Is it for the department, or is it for themselves? Or is it that there's just somebody else they don't like? I think that some people inherently need a villain. If there isn't one, they need to create one, and so I've seen that where they'll just tear down another neighboring agency or something. But as far as the feedback, what I look at is what's their motivation? Are they taking a I don't want to say a realistic perspective, but do they have all the information? If not, then I communicate Okay, and I would welcome this.
Speaker 2:People would come to my office, knock on my door, said you have a minute, we'll talk for two hours. I'll cancel a meeting if I have a firefighter that wants to talk for that long, and I would always want to hear their perspective. And then, as they're talking, I would give them the insight I have. If it's sometimes there's stuff you can't discuss, but I would pass it on and then I would ask for their feedback with the new information I just presented to them, just so that when the conversation is done either granted, I'm going to learn something, but I want to make sure they have a much broader perspective because they took the time to come and see me. So I want to make sure that they have the full picture and maybe their idea is exactly what we needed. But the end goal is that we all learn more from the situation.
Speaker 1:And I think you just hit on something that I personally have a lot of appreciation for is when your chief officer has that open door policy. They're willing to share with you as much information as appropriate or they can to maybe help you understand why they're making a decision. And it's like at our department. Here we have an email, kind of a not a newsletter, but an email update that goes out every Friday that our chief sends out, and down at the very bottom he has what he calls fake news. You know those rumors that float around during the week. He'll go through and he'll pretty, and you he'll hit it just about every week what people have been talking about, whether it be a pay study or so and so did this, or, and then he's all this is fake news. So if you hear this, don't believe it. And I thought that was pretty cool that he started doing that to help cut off some of the unnecessary chatter when it comes to stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. I think just having a simple, engaging email like that is huge. In hindsight, my last position I don't think I got probably half the rumors. I think that by the time they got to me they were very stale and that a new rumors had replaced them. But yeah, it's good just having that interaction.
Speaker 2:And I think, though, one thing to mention is being able to share information with your staff, because one of the challenges I found as a fire chief is you have to make decisions based off the information you have. Sometimes you can't share all that information, and with the new generations, who are just hungry to hear what's going on and get that information on their end, there were times where I couldn't share it, and so they didn't always understand, and so that's another challenge you have as a fire chief, because, if there's, you can't expect someone to keep something as secret if you don't, and so there weren't. There were certain issues I just couldn't share, and so, having some decisions made, you just had to do the best you could with communicating, but there is that one area where, hey, I have to make a decision as a fire chief. Sure.
Speaker 1:And it may not be a popular decision sometimes, but you have to make it because you have the full picture. Like you said a lot of times, other people don't Throughout your career. It sounds like you've. You've been through many different types of volunteer departments, paid departments, things like that, and you've fulfilled a ver a variety of roles from, I imagine, all the way from possibly, a firefighter engineer all the way up to chief officer. But as you transition through your career, what are some of the lessons that you've picked up or sources of information that you've picked up, very valuable lessons that have helped you as you've grown near the end of your career or as you start looking at transitioning out of the fire service, if we ever actually do that? What are some of the places that you've picked up the most valuable information from?
Speaker 2:That's a good question.
Speaker 2:I think it's similar when you're building a business that you learn more from your failures than you do your successes at times.
Speaker 2:And so, going looking back at my career, I remember certain things that I went through or experienced or decisions I made and I was like, oh, that was a mistake, and I learned from them, and so I think it's rare that I ever made decisions or mistakes twice.
Speaker 2:And so I think that, looking back at each experience and I was lucky that every department I worked for was very busy in one way or another I was at South Lake Tahoe, I got, I evacuated the entire city for a massive wildfire that came through, and so I had all these different experiences that I took away from, which is how I actually came up with the idea of running a fire department like a business, because I left at one point to do it at a startup company, and I remember as I was doing it, I was thinking, boy, if I was a chief now, I'd be able to take so much more back to it. And then, neville, I went back to become a chief, and so I think those experiences and learning from the successes and, more importantly, the failures, is really what gave me the perspective I have today and have been successful in both the fire chief and now with my startup company.
Speaker 1:That there's so much truth to that. My son, who's 13, he's a big fan of mythbusters and he was watching one of the older episodes and there was a phrase that came up failure is always an option. And you'll hear Colin say that sometimes. Hey, dad, failure is always an option. And he's starting to pick up on the fact that failure is part of the path to success. You've got to realize what your weaknesses are to get better at them. So, yeah, there's such a large amount of truth to what you just said. It's something I think a lot of us need to get over ourselves and realize that it's not all about us, but it's okay for us to fail. But let's fail at practice and not on game day.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, that show is filmed in the county next to us, by the way.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, you know I still watch Adam Savage on Tested that he does on YouTube, where he's always doing projects and stuff like that. But yeah, it's just byproduct of being a nerd, I don't know, but anyway. So what types of things would you say that folks can look forward to as they get closer to retirement? I know you said you went from the fire sector to the business sector and you went back to the fire sector. What have you taken away from that wide variety of experiences? Because a lot of times when folks retire they're like I'm done, I'm not coming back. Then we've got some that come back part-time and it's just there's so many different experiences that people have. What can you recommend that people look for? What can they take away from your lessons that you've learned in your time both in the fire service and away from it?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question and from my experience and I've technically left twice and so you want to have something ready to go you need to have your the next chapter of your life ready, hour one that you leave your retirement party from your last, when you go off duty last time have something for the next chapter of your life, aside from buying an RV in a Hawaiian shirt. You need to have something in your life to keep you busy and feel like you have purpose. I've seen so many guys that would retire and then you see them a year later and they look like they've aged 10 years because they have that loss of identity. They have that loss of purpose in the world. They go to the grocery store. They're just buying something to take home, like every other civilian walking through the store. They're no longer the person who kids run up to and want a picture with. It's a.
Speaker 2:It can be a shock, and when I left the first time in 2014, it was actually because I got burned really bad in a house fire and I damaged my lungs and I couldn't go to a fire anymore. It was basically I almost died the last time I went to a fire and so I had to leave. I could have stayed and had a desk job, but I said no, it's not mine, that's not for me. And so I left and there was a huge loss in my sense of purpose on this planet. I'm qualified to be a firefighter and qualified to work on motorcycles, and that's it. That's all I can do. And luckily I found someone to start that health and safety firefighter app called exposure tracker back in 2014. And I continued that, and so I was able to get back into the fire services fire chief because I didn't have to go to fires.
Speaker 2:But that first break, when I first left, contra cost of fire, it was really hard. It was depressing, and I remember times like thinking I can just sit here and feel sorry for myself or I can pick myself up and create a new purpose. But granted, I was like 36. And so it was a bit easier. And so when I left two years ago, it was basically because my software company I'd started was taking off and I was working every waking minute and I realized, hey, I have to pick one.
Speaker 2:And so mentally, I was ready to transition forever out of the fire service and do my software company full time, and so I had that ready to go. In fact it was a relief when I left the second time. It was a huge relief. And so I think for anybody looking for that transition, you have to have something ready to go, unless you're just so burned out that you want out no matter what. Then maybe you're mentally already ready to go, sure, but I know for a lot of us it's too much of our identity to just walk away into, grab a cocktail and sit on a beach somewhere, because there's a lot of stuff floating around in our heads that it's hard to just leave behind.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is the same situation on the west coast as it is here on the east coast, but I've run into and I've worked with guys that have retired and you know, as they're getting up to retirement, the first thing is like when I'm done, I'm not going to come back to the firehouse and drink coffee and hang out.
Speaker 1:And you know what some of those guys, when they're done, they found an identity that is not of the fire service, not that they're not proud of what they did, but they're ready to move on. And and if someone has that feeling, I don't think it's necessarily a terrible thing. It's not like you're turning your back on the entire industry. But some people, like you, say they are just burned out when they get to the end and you've got to find that thing that keeps you going and if you don't have something to fill that hole, it's really going to hurt you and you've really got to start thinking about what else you're going to do. So definitely good takeaways that we can, that we can look forward to as we all progress through our careers Excellent. Do you have any concluding tips, tricks, points, anything that you think our listeners need to know about, so they can be super cool and super effective.
Speaker 2:I guess two of the last key points I've embraced for running a department like a business is don't be held back by bureaucracies. No one's better at bureaucracies in government and as a fire chief I always just found a way around it. When that and the way I found a way around it is the main key point I've had, is that, and that's just persistence. I'd always tell my guys I may not be the smartest person in the room, but I'm the last one to give up, and so if you're persistent, you have good ideas, you work hard and you're prepared when you go into these battles, you can overcome these bureaucracies and other challenges. And so I think, being persistent, doing your homework, it made a huge difference in running a fire department and it's obviously helped with my business just not giving up. So those are two big factors, I think, in how I've been successful.
Speaker 1:Oh, excellent. Again, clive, thank you for taking time to share that stuff with us and that life experience. Learn, because that's something that you can't get until you've already done it, and I just hope some of the young guys will take, take notes from lessons like yours and other folks that we've met throughout our careers. So if folks want to catch up with you, clive, have questions for you, want to learn about you, what? How can they learn more about you?
Speaker 2:Probably LinkedIn is the best source. We have our website, logrxcom, but that's more of the product. But they want to reach out to me, just Clive Savakul on LinkedIn. There's only one of me, so it won't be too hard. But yeah, I'm always happy to help my coach guys for free with like promotional stuff here locally and so anything. If I can help somebody else succeed because I had people help me along the way, so I'm always happy to pass it on.
Speaker 1:Yep, we all have to pass it forward or pay it forward at some point. But so I know you said you've listened to a couple of our episodes ahead of time and there is a tradition we have here, and so I have a question for you why don't you want to ever get caught by a gang of mimes? I can't even think of the punchline because they will do unspeakable things to you.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I know that's a really bad one, but like no, no, I'm gonna tell my 13 year old when I get out of the auto booth yeah, he'll love it.
Speaker 1:He'll love it all right, but anyway, again, clive, thank you so much. I'm sure we'll see you around and we'll have you back around sometime to talk a little bit more about what other fun stuff you're getting into and, like we always tell our listeners, go ahead and light that fire within. Thank you, and have a good evening. You have been listening to All Clear. All Clear is presented by the North Carolina Firefighter Cancer Alliance and the first responders peer support network. You can find out more about us at allclearpodcastcom. Leave us a message. We'd appreciate hearing from you. If you like what you hear, tell someone. Appearance expressed by guests do not always reflect the opinions of the podcast. Intro and outro music provided by Wayne John Bradley. And, as always, light your fire within. See you soon.
